Joint perspectives

Interview with Alice Murgier, head of the Legal Hub at SOS Racisme and Yannick L’Horty, research professor specialised in discrimination on the employment market at Université Gustave Eiffel.

Yannick L’Horty : Discrimination is defined both by criteria (age, gender, disability, religion, etc.) and situation (access to housing, a loan, a recreational activity, etc.). The criteria of origin and the situation of employment access has already been the subject of a large amount of scientific literature, but nothing has been said about the evolution of this phenomenon over time, nor of its geography: is there more discrimination in Marseille or Paris, in mainland France or in overseas territories? MELODI is a programme¹ that aims to develop the spatial dimension of the phenomenon of discrimination. With MELODI in the overseas departments, we also focused on another orphaned field of scientific study: discrimination based on a person’s origin from French Overseas Territories. Our last objective was to better understand discrimination and interpret its mechanisms, in order to provide more effective recommendations for public action.

Alice Murgier : The importance of MELODI-DOM - and of our collaboration with TEPP more broadly, which has been ongoing for around ten years through projects such as DIAMANT and PIRATE - is the academic and scientific weight that it gives to our association. These studies provide data obtained with advanced scientific methods. These are facts proving that discrimination exists and that it is not an isolated phenomenon. They enrich our knowledge, support our discussions with decision-makers and increase the credibility of our legal initiatives. The location of the study is also important: the French Overseas Territories are forgotten areas that people do not focus on enough, including us.

Y. L. H. : The first challenge is to objectively measure discrimination. This is very difficult to do, which can mean that sometimes, reality is denied. We have to provide proof of the existence, scope and forms of discrimination. The difficulty mainly comes down to the fact that discrimination is a heavily sanctioned act: normally, a discriminator will not speak freely about their discriminatory behaviour. On this note, the participation of SOS Racisme in this project is key. Their discrimination testing operations - a method which the association popularised in France in the 1990s - have helped bring visibility to this phenomenon. Furthermore, the association helped promote the results of our studies. The members of SOS Racisme are experts who have built relations, not only with media outlets, but also with ministerial cabinets and major management boards in the central administration. It’s thanks to them that we were able hold the press conference with the Ministry for Equality between Women and Men, Diversity and Equal Opportunities.

The second challenge in our work relates to employment access. In the Overseas Departments, the employment market has deteriorated and there is a high rate of unemployment, especially for young people and women. In fact, I think discrimination is one of the underestimated causes of unemployment.

A. M. : They defy all logic: though inexcusable, preferencing someone from the same city would have been understandable. However, here, it’s the opposite. This proves once again that racist stereotypes that have been disseminated for many years still persist today. You do not choose your name. If you have to change it to find a job, the situation is serious indeed. The fight against racism is a struggle that persists today and that must be undertaken everywhere.

¹ MELODI MELODI is a research programme undertaken across different territories. A first pilot study - in cooperation with the Community of the Maubeuge Val de Sambre agglomeration - was organised in 2020. In 2022, another MELODI study focused on the joint effects of gender, origin and address on the territory of the metropole of Lille.